George’s Marriage: The Kokusai-Kekkon Blues
Blue on Jun 30 2007 at 3:43 am | Filed under: Japan: People and Society
How long does this stage last in a Kokusai Kekkon?
Here on Stippy the most popular of articles has been “Sexless in Japan”, which prompted a huge response from readers and is indicative of the fact that marriage in Japan is fraught with many challenges. Even more so, international marriage is fraught with so many more issues that threaten to destabilize life as a couple and life as a family. We have also written about pre-marital counseling for gaijin-Japanese couples thinking of tying the knot in Japan, where we explored some preemptive measures that can be taken to attempt to avoid disaster upon arriving back from your honeymoon. We have not yet however, touched specifically on how the novelty of an international marriage can quickly erode away, mainly due to lack of somebody willing to become our “case study”.
George (yes, that George) is in a predicament which many stippy readers may find themselves in one day – or even worse may be sharing with him right now! George agreed to being our “case study”, and while his problem is probably not so uncommon, it is one that tends to simmer away in the confines between one’s genkan and verandah, and mostly does not show itself at all in the public arena until suddenly boiling over one day with a bitter divorce.
We interviewed George to get a little more insight into just what he is going through in his “Kokusai-kekkon blues”. (Kokusai-Kekkon, is the Japanese term for international marriage. 国際結婚). The story is written in first person, right as we heard it from George. It is a sensitive subject and very personal for him. We thank George once again for letting us delve into his private life, for public good. With no further ado here is George’s story of the state of his multi-racial (gaijin & Japanese) married life.
George’s Marriage and the Kokusai-Kekkon Blues:
Last weekend I had a big argument with my wife of 6 years. It took until mid-week for us to sit down and discuss it and I had to admit that much of the argument was my fault and that I had definitely “gone too far”. I had said some things that needed more than just an airing. They needed to be investigated.
It was clear to my wife that I am struggling with our life together. During the weekend argument, she had also told me that she did not see us being together after our children left school. With my admissions of concern about our marriage, she made it clear that she had fast tracked her thinking to wanting to make a decision within the next year or two as she hits thirty years of age. The rationale being that as a divorced homemaker with kids, life would be tough; she is still young and very attractive and has a chance to find someone good to replace me.
As we talked mid-week, I had to think deeply about how I contribute to such anxiety for my wife. I came up with a few very negative character traits that probably make me a difficult husband for any woman.
It dawned upon me that I am much like my father back home. He is quite abusive to my mother who gets belittled and made to feel useless by him on a regular basis. My sister thinks that she is so far into this state of misery that our mother simply plays her part and shows no sign of self-confidence to stand up to the verbal abuse. To my knowledge he, like I with my wife, has never physically abused her; it is verbal abuse when angered. I, like him, have anger management issues.
In my wife’s family this relationship is the exact opposite: it is her mother who is the wearer of the pants and controller of how things are done. Her father is incredibly meek to the point that, while I like him very much, he borders on being pathetic, with no confidence to do anything other than his job. My wife’s grandmother had an abusive husband, as does her aunt. Her grandmother shrugged off convention and dumped her drunken gambler husband in the 1960′s and started a successful commercial real estate business. She is a strong matriarch, chain smoking with a very real strength in her eyes. My wife, aside from being a non-smoker is very much of this mold and this is one of her great qualities.
Despite my weakness here and her strength, it is evident that there are major problems in our marriage that are not altogether our own personal weaknesses but are key factors in making our marriage tough to work out. They are cultural issues. Probably more “cultural tolerance” issues.
As a brief backgrounder, my wife is pure Japanese. She could not speak English when I met her and culturally she is fully comfortable with who she is. I know some people who are married to Japanese women who seek to leave Japan or to escape their “Japanese-ness” and others who become “American” in order to fit in with their husband and his world. My wife is not like that. She shuns this world and that type of gaijin-nihonjin. Naturally, I also know a number of Gaijin who seek to escape their Gaijin-ness by really trying to become “Japanese”: throwing themselves head first into the culture, language and way of life. I think there is a term I saw on a blog for this sort of person, and I am certainly not it. What I am, much like my wife, is proud of where I come from and who I am. In fact being in Japan for as long as I have, my identity has been strongly shaped by the contrast to Japan. I fell in love with my home culture more.
Embracing the other culture…
My suspicion is that those international marriages that see one party being flexible enough to embrace their partners culture are the more successful. If the typical western marriage faces a 50:50 chance, then it goes without saying that the international marriage has less. I am focusing this on my impression of first time marriages. Quite possibly second or third marriages are fine as the couples are more mature and realistic about their expectations.
Anyway, I make these observations as they are a crucial part of where my wife and I are going wrong. We both agree that I am reluctant to become “Japanese” and she is reluctant to become “American”; though I am the most rock hard stubborn of the two (For the record, George is not necessarily American!). It is easy to say in poetic tones that true love conquers all boundaries (and all that jazz), and at least it was that way when we fell in love, but it is not so easy now. The bruising we have taken (more her than me) over the past 6 years has eroded that love and respect for each other to the point that we recognize that we have little in common – except two beautiful kids.
Basically I came to Japan as I was a student looking for new horizons and to learn the language. Japanese business style in the late 80′s and early 90′s was espoused by Harvard Business School – and all the rest – as the best thing since sliced bread. I sought to come over here and get “internationalized”, adding some strings to my bow. I fell in love with a real Japanese beauty. I fell in love with Japan: the people, the culture, the food, the “wa”. But I never fell out of love with my homeland or who I was, and eventually, with all the stress that comes with living in the big city of Tokyo, I fell out of love with Japan.
That lack of love for my current place of residence is problematic for my relationship with my wife. And my kids. However my career is now sewn into this city. I can not simply get up and leave, though some day I do pray that I can take my family home and have them share my world and have my children grow up knowing truly what it means to be “American”. At present our kids are growing up in a regular Japanese world; they are not at all growing up as “Americans” and this is the beginning of a crisis for me.
Will my kids ever be able to embrace my “world”? Will they simply test it out while we live there? The plan being when they hit high school. Then will they simply return to Japan to get a bilingual job and marry a Japanese girl and settle in Tokyo forever? Condemning me to the fate of my own parents and great distances from my future grandchildren. These are all concerns that have begun to haunt me. Am I going too far?
If we move to “America”, my wife will have a tough time. Her English is good but not at all fluent, which makes a big difference in making friends. She shares a similar concern as myself that the kids will then turn on her culture and follow me. We discussed this further and obviously (as we have been raising them) we want the kids to be able to embrace both cultures and make their own choices. 
However it remains a worry that we will feel alone when we are old. If we can not resolve our differences and truly embrace each other’s culture, then the children will have trouble in finding out for themselves who they really are.
Maybe at this stage of our lives we simply do not have enough experience to know how we will feel when older. Maybe we are both closet racists. Maybe we can work it out. Whatever the result, at present, both of us feel that we are potentially wasting our lives by staying with each other. We are considering divorce. But where does that leave the kids?
Did you adjust to your Japanese spouse? Did they adjust to you? Any other root causes of conflict in a Kokusai-kekkon? Is George too late to read the book pictured on the right? Tell us what you think in the comments below! (Or, if you are not married to a Japanese, but are willing to give it a try, here is the first step – give Stippy Friends a burl. There is plenty of romance to be had in Japan…! Just try not to get hooked 
)
Other stippy.com articles possibly of interest:
55 Responses to “George’s Marriage: The Kokusai-Kekkon Blues”
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Sorry to hear about your troubles. I admire your willingness to be open and honest about the situation in such a public forum. You certainly aren’t the only one stuck in an unfulfilling “kokusai kekkon”. I was in one and got out. It seems most of my friends got divorces from their first wives and are much happier in their subsequent relationships. The ones who have stayed in unhappy relationships appear to deal with it by drinking a lot.
You ask what will happen to your kids if you divorce. Well, if your wife is as typically Japanese as you say, you will definitely be cut out of the picture once she remarries, and maybe even if she doesn’t. There is no joint custody in Japan. There is no authority that will enforce visitation rights if you happen to get that concession in court. A Japanese court will not give a foreigner custody if there is a Japanese parent who wants the kids. And the common perception in Japan is that it is confusing and hurtful for children to see the non-custodial parent after a divorce and therefore it’s better for them to have no contact with that other parent. (Former Prime Minister Koizumi and his children are a prime example of how that works.)
If you and your wife still love each other and if you’re willing to really work on your anger issues, I’d say find a well-qualified marriage counselor and try to work it out. Otherwise, be prepared to lose a lot that is precious to you.
[...] Here on Stippy the most popular of articles has been “Sexless in Japan”, which prompted a huge response from readers and is indicative of the fact that marriage in Japan is fraught with many challenges. … …more [...]
I am the divorced ex-husband of a very Japanese Japanese wife and the non-custodial father of a teenage son. I have been very lucky in that my ex-wife and her family still treat me as a family member e.g. I am still welcome to stay in my ex-wife’s home and even her parent’s home whenever I’m in town. So I have an enormous amount of respect for her family. Anyway enough about me. Obviously I don’t know you or your situation. But based on my regrets over my own divorce (which seemed like a good idea at the time) and bearing in mind your other story about being arrested in Japan (which suggests to me that you are sometimes out of control of your actions) I would recommend caution – do not rush into divorce. Examine your own behaviour and consider are there ways in which you could become a better husband and better father. Look into your own heart and before you rush into divorce try to become the best person you can be. Good luck !
George, sorry to hear your troubles.
Take it from a man who’s been there, fucked it up & now regrets it!
You clearly love your wife, & she loves you too, (at least it sounds that way from your prison article), but presently something is blocking that feeling & I reckon it maybe stress & long work hours….that’s what it was for me. A common pitfall for many marriages.
I’d come home often after the kids were asleep, & slump down on the sofa & moan about work / or occasionally bubble on about it if I’d had a good day. My wife would call me selfish & say that I never thought about her & then a whole argument would start….”I work all freeking day for you & the kids”…..”I clean the house & take care of everything”….”but then why is the house still a mess?!!” …..”you don’t appreciate what you have”…..”you don’t appreciate me”…..etc. etc. & it would escalate.
But you know, I have learnt that a woman needs to feel appreciated & loved, just like we do, & a simple hug & a “how are you? How was your day?” when you come through the door from work (I know sometimes you don’t feel like it), will open up your wife, & she’ll want to help you relax & listen to you then. Hell she may even make you a cup of tea without bearing a grudge! It is also important for us men to listen to our women’s needs too, & if we do this successfuly our needs will be met because the woman will be more open to empathize with us.
Now I live back in the UK with my second wife, who is British, & despite our common language & culture we still have huge communication problems & issues.
I have a bad temper & need to learn to control it, & she is nuerotic, which can be really difficult sometimes. But, I try to give her love everyday, be it a hug or kiss, sometimes I even bring her tea in bed…& she really tries hard to look after me too. It’s great! But, I could have easily achieved that with my Japanese ex-wife, if I had stopped to think about it…. despite the cultural differences.
As usual I have learnt the hard way…..doh!
Well, my ex-wife is re-married & this time I think happily, & her husband is good with the kids, despite them not being his. I do visit from time to time & they have been amicable & understanding which is great.
Actually, her husband is Japanese & he also went through a similar process to me, so we get along pretty well & can even laugh about our pitfalls together. But, I do feel like I have missed out on so much.
I urge you to take your time & just imagine life without your family around you. I also feel & empathize with your concern about your children accepting your own country’s culture.
You know I reckon if you remain open to the Japanese culture & show respect for it, & all other cultures for that matter, your children will adopt the same attitude & will respect your culture & be genuinely interested in it. As long as you are living with them, they are your mirror, specially if they’re boys. So they’ll pick up your values & ethics anyway. Maybe a trip back to your homeland with your family would also help them to grow interest in your roots. I know the other fear in Japan is that children grow up with little ability to voice their own opinions & form debates etc etc….but I think htat is largely down to the parents. That can be taught at home through conversation at the dinner table.
Just think George, if you leave your family, you face having kids that may fall into that mis-interpreted category of “meek minded” robots.
Well, good luck to you George, whichever path you choose.
Thanks for your story George. I’d love to hear more of it. The most interesting part for me is trying to ascertain which part is due to marriage just being a really tough thing to deal with on its own and which part is due to the international bit. I’m a new rice to the marriage thing and so spend a lot of time thinking about how to do a good job of it. I look at the mistakes that I make and wonder if I would have made them even if my wife was not Japanese (answer so far is probably Yes).
Recently I’m starting to wonder if we actually have an advantage over others with Kokusai Kekkon. Why? Because we have this neat little “excuse” to sit back and say “Hey, we might be having troubles honey – let’s talk about this.” I wonder if I would have the guts to do this if I didn’t have an excuse like Kokusai Kekkon to blame it on.
Anyway George, I’m actually pretty excited for you – if you’re talking about it with your wife then you are half way to finding a solution. (from your perspective anyway – according to a lot of the books I’ve read, a female puts up with the pain/frustration for a lot longer and so when she does ultimately bring it up in conversation she is much closer to the tipping point that men). You’ve got the stippy.com readership behind you so let us know if we can help out. (and people like me are looking to you for advice!)
George, first off, I want to say that I really admire your openness and honesty. Your Prison series revealed a man willing to take a hard look at himself, even when he didn’t always like what he saw. This article does the same.
That being said, I, like Richmond above, wonder how many of the problems you’re having are due to interpersonal issues, and how many to cultural. To be blunt, where do you think your marriage would be right now if you’d had a better hold on your temper from the start? Not where it might be in a month or a year from now if you (effectively) change your personality — how do you think it would have progressed up to this point if you had expressed your anger in a better way? I know nothing about your situation other than what was in the different articles here on Stippy, but I’d be very much surprised if you feel that things would be the same. Certainly, living in a foreign place that holds fewer and fewer charms for you is a stress all on its own — but one divorced (if you’ll pardon the phrase) from home-based stresses.
At the risk of being facetious, I’d like to put forth my opinion as to the first, and only real rule for a successful marriage: marry the right person. Did you? Did she? Putting all the outside challenges aside — the long hours at the job, the cultural or language differences, the difficulties of life in a big city, etc. — is she the right one for you? You come from a home where the man of the house was strong (even abusive), while the woman was passive. Your wife comes from one where it was the opposite. Put into another context: if reality were changed, and your wife — this same woman — was American instead of Japanese, and you were living in the States, would things between you be appreciably different? No woman wants to be bullied, no matter where she’s from. A woman with strong female role-models in her life will like it even less. I strongly suspect that your personality represents a world of difference from your father’s, simply based on the things I’ve read (this, from the son of a violent man), so putting yourself in *his* category is just doing yourself a disservice. But we do learn from our dads, don’t we? The good and the bad?
This is over-long, and I apologize. You’re not looking for marriage advice from strangers, certainly. Just a final, perhaps fatalistic, comment about your kids and their sense of culture, though. Like it or not, they *are* Japanese. The most you’ll ever be able to do is give them a sense of pride in their heritage. You can move them to the States, but unless they’re young enough to fully adapt (as only kids can), or they decide for themselves that it’s what they want, it will always be a foreign land to them.
Best of luck, George, to you and yours.
Thanks guys. Well, some good comments.
Like Mick above, I have a strong feeling that I would be welcome with my in-laws and even my wife to continue seeing the kids. We even talked about that in the past.
Don, I am hearing you. That fight scene is so familiar it is frightening.
David, yes, I think you are correct in that it would not matter whether I was in a conventional marriage or international one: I would still be facing a similar crisis due to my own issues.
Funny that, sitting here now, my wife looks pristine in all of this. I guess that it how it is in many ways.
To answer the question of whether she “is the one”. The truth is we got married as we suddenly had a child coming. I couldn’t really contemplate the other options and wanted to do the right thing. It has been a hard road as I took her away from her world and into a world of family life, so she does remind me of the things she gave up from pre-marital life but has made an effort to not bring that up until the argument has progress to open warfare. I, to be fair, have not had to give up much, so I just have to take it on the chin. So, I can not honestly answer if she is “the one” or not and that is sad. Before we got married, I would have said yes.
Well George, if you probably would have said yes she’s the “one”, before you got married then that really says alot. You obviously believed that it could be, & surely it still can.
After all you’ve laid out all your cards on the table & took a good look at yourself & you have communicated openly with your wife. Bravo George! THose are somethings that some guys would never be able to do!
It took my father 15 years of drunkeness & 5 years of AA to realise his character traits & piece his life back together, & you have recognised yours in less than four!
If you’ve recognised them, then like another blogger was saying, you are well on your way to resolving the situation.
You are a stronger man than I & many others George. I wish I had the foresight & self awareness that you do, then perhaps I’d still father my kids & live happily with my ex. But what is done is done & I’m paying my dues now…happy in someways & sad in others.
My Mother successfully re-married & has been with her current partner for close on 20 years. I asked her what she thought about the concept of marrying the “one”
She looks at it like this.
You will not spend more than a year with someone who is not compatible with your life & needs. However, when you do spend long with a partner, you are bound to come up against challenges & conflicts that threaten to seperate you.
At these points many people stop communicating & grow to resent each other, they split up & find a new right “one” & feel rotten when the same kind of process happens again!
In short, she thinks that there is no perfect “one”. The “one” is the oneness you create between yourself & your partner by sticking together & addressing each others needs. she recommends a book called “Non Violent Communication” by Professor Carl Rosenberg.
THe concept in his book should apply in any language.
She has leant me a copy, & my current wife & I so far think it makes a great deal of sense, not only in personal life, but also at work & in business. But it takes practise to control your mouth & actually use the N.V.C effectively when an argument is brewing! (at least it does for me).
Well once again, good luck to you & if you do read that book, let me know what you thought.
Cheers
I lived in rural Japan (a city of 60,000 about 2 hours north of Kyoto) for about ten years. I met my wife there, got married, and ran a business. Our son was born there. We came “home” to Canada three years ago. It’s been tough, and I must say I miss Japan more than my Japanese wife. If we didn’t have kids I would move back in a flash. But we are unwilling to put our son through the Japanese school system (although I must say I like the elementary system). Truth be told, it’s more my wife that’s afraid of the school system than me. I was “one of those foreigners” who really appreciated life in Japan and never wanted to leave. But the recession did me in – I was living in a rural area and did not want to move to a big city.
I would say my situation is similar to yours: like you, I have a burning desire to change my life drastically. You want to go back home to the States. I want to go back home to Japan.
Recently, I was offered a partnership in a small translation agency in Tokyo. I decided not to take it. It just wouldn’t have been right for my family.
While I wouldn’t exactly say I’ve given up on my idea of returning to Japan, I have decided to get my priorities straight. The stability and happiness of my family is more important than anything else, so, for the time being I’ve shelved my Japan plans.
You should do the same. Despite my own circumstances, there’s nothing wrong with having your kids grow up in Japan. They will turn out in beautiful and unexpected ways. Learn to love your wife a little more. Divorce can be pretty nasty.
I also admire the openness that comes along with this sort of article and hope that something good comes of it for George and everyone in his situation.
I’m not in an international marriage so you may want to take my comments with a grain of salt. However, I think that all marriages are, to a great extent, “cross-cultural”. Each person grows up in a family culture, if not a national one, and comes with different expectations and notions of what is “normal”. I think George may appreciate this given that he sees his father in himself. He was shaped by his family’s culture in this fashion.
All successful and happy marriages require change on the part of both parties. A lot of people see the necessary changes as an unreasonable expectation that they will have to abandon who they are and resist such change. Men typically resist more than women because they are inclined to dominate and to value “winning” arguments over ending conflict.
Your assertion that you are “very American” and your wife is “very Japanese” seems to simply be an excuse not to make the necessary changes in your personalities to help your marriage succeed. Though the wording is different, this is tantamount to the married people who say, “you knew I was like that when you married me.” Rather than attempting to change in a manner which makes for less conflict in a relationship, such people tend to insist on remaining exactly as their are regardless of the consequences for their relationship.
Such changes are not about swallowing your pride or ignoring your own feelings but about reassessing the value of stubborn, lazy, or neurotic tendencies in the face of the damage they cause your partner. For women, often this involves being more assertive and stopping their tendency to expect men to do what they want unbidden and for men it usually involves being more proactive in expressing gratitude and helping out around the house (but it varies from couple to couple). If you can’t change, your relationship will almost certainly fail in some way (either ending in divorce or an unhappy situation) whether you are in an international one or not.
I had serious temper problems when I married but I don’t anymore because I went through a process of trying to understand why I was so angry each time it happened and analyzing my reactions against the stimuli causing them. I did a lot of apologizing after the fact at the beginning and these apologies came a lot faster as I made progress. Later, the outbursts themselves diminished greatly as I began to see that it was me with the problem, not the stimuli itself (that is, if my husband didn’t do something and I got upset, it wasn’t him but my expectations or perfectionist tendencies causing the problem).
Your situation is harder because, to be honest, I’m guessing that the core of the problem is you don’t want to really be in Japan anymore and your reactions and attitude toward your wife will always be a mixture of knowing you love her and want to be with her and that the price of being with her is having to be here.
If it helps, I don’t feel you don’t have to be “in love” with Japan to live here but merely find it a comfortable place to live and earn a living. It is, after all, just a place. You don’t have to surrender your cultural desires or your identity. All places have positives and negatives. You may want to consider carefully whether being somewhere else would really be better or just different.
Regarding your children, they will never be “only Japanese” whether they grow up here mainly or not because you are their father. You need to stop focusing on your children’s cultural experiences and focus only on what will make them happy and good people regardless of where they live.
In the end, it’s the focus of your thoughts which will see you through. When you reach an impasse emotionally and want to explode or scream, that’s the moment to sit back and ask yourself the way out of that feeling rather than focusing on the feeling itself and acting out on it. This can serve you well in any of your arguments or difficulties because you learn to stop viewing each situation as a road with a path you prefer and path your wife prefers and start to see a way around to another path which is one of compromise and resolution. Good luck.
Shari that was very well put, thanks. I think I was trying to say something vaguely similiar but you did a much better job, I found myself nodding all the way through. It sounds like you have experienced enough to write a book!
I’ll second that Richmond, excellent stuff Shari. Points I shall take on board myself not only to enrich my marital relationship, but also my friendships too.
“In the end, it’s the focus of your thoughts which will see you through. When you reach an impasse emotionally and want to explode or scream, that’s the moment to sit back and ask yourself the way out of that feeling rather than focusing on the feeling itself and acting out on it.”
To elaborate on this point, I just want to add that it is very important to focus on that way out, not simply to escape the feeling, but to actually face it & find it’s root cause. That is the only real way out.
If you can do that, which may take a bit of time & personal space, you will find that reaching such emotional states of rage or frustration will decrease & eventually disappear.
Like Shari said, with your realisations from these times of focusing on your feelings & their roots, you’ll be able to give your wife a clear picture of whats going on inside of you.
That done she may even know when to give you your own headspace without you having to say anything, & she won’t be angry about it anymore. She’ll see it more as a process that is necessary for you & for your marriage together.
Personally I have found it really hard to sit back at that moment that Shari speaks of, without letting it rip. Fortunately, I was able to explain this to my current wife & that at that time I may need to retreat to my “cave” to focus on my feelings & where they’re coming from. Through going to my “cave” numerous times, I was able to become “George” & slay that “dragon” that lay inside me, by understanding it’s origin. After these processes I was able to share it with my wife & apologise to her with sincerity.
She used to just see this retreat to the “cave” of my inner feelings as an excuse to run away from an argument, (which was really testing because that only made me more angry), but eventually she saw the importance of it & how much my anger has improved.
My background bears similarities to yours, in that I had an abusive father figure too.
My blood father left when I was 2 because he was a raging alcoholic & wanted to remove himself from damaging his family any further, my subsequent father figure who had a stroke, was left handicapped, & died some years later. Throughout my teens I had an abusive father figure who instilled a great deal of rage into me through his brutish actions & harsh words. My mother was too fatigued from years of looking after her previous disabled husband to stand up to her new & abusive partner & just took it. She was afraid that she would be alone again. But it did end happily, my mother has been with her current partner for 14 years & he is a top bloke who really helped me through my difficulties!
That abusive teenage period had stuck with me, deeply seated in my body, in my muscles, keeping me tense & edgey all the time. It has been a truely powerful monster, rupturing some of my friendships & longterm relationships & even wounding people. I was somewhat messed up & confused by human relationships, I didn’t know how to treat people, let alone communicate with them on emotional levels. Then I fell in love, & my “dragon” drove my first wife away from me, because I hadn’t stopped to face it. I was in my late twenties & still an angry teenager.
Anyway, that’s enough out of me. Like I said before, you seem to have a level perspective of your problem & you appear to have a good idea of where it stems from, so I think you’ll be able to overcome your problem much quicker than I did mine (I was not level headed at all!).
Please keep us posted George. I think I speak for everyone when I say, we’re rooting for you!
Don: It took a lot of time and effort for me to break the cycle of having angry outbursts (and I still haven’t succeeded entirely but it happens very rarely now – maybe once a month or two and with lower intensity and duration than before). The scary thing about having a temper for me was how hard I’d try to talk myself into being angrier and angrier rather than try and find a way out. My husband would do something that upset me (usually after I’d had a stressful day or he’d done other little things) and we’d have a big fight and I’d be sitting there telling myself this type of thing was happening over and over and it’d never get better or change. I’d tell myself he didn’t respect me or care about me or he would do something differently. I’d be internally egging myself on and pushing myself into a corner emotionally.
It was this habit that I broke the cycle of first. My husband and I would both be sitting there with our emotional wounds fresh and bleeding in pain and feeling despair and it just occurred to me one day that it was more important to get out of it than to feed my bruised ego or raging temper. Since the habits which caused the fights were things my husband didn’t want but was sort of stuck with (like being incredibly forgetful at lightning speed – forgetting simple requests within a minute, for instance), I had to realize it wasn’t a reflection on me or how he regarded me and that getting mad at him didn’t help and probably hurt as he’d get defensive about it. At the end of a temper-induced stew, I’d finally reach a point where I’d re-assess the situation and calmly tell him I realized it wasn’t on purpose and I knew he’d try harder in the future not to do it and I’d try harder not to explode over little things. I’d apologize for my reaction. He’d apologize for what he did but we both knew it wasn’t really something under our control at that point in time.
That process was the beginning. From there, the fights slowly got shorter and the realizations came faster. After awhile, those little things which enraged me just became annoying and now they rarely bother me much at all. In the end, it helped a lot to realize that almost all his negative traits (and mine) were the flip-side of a positive trait. My husband is incredibly calm and things don’t bother him much. When I’m obsessing and tense over little crap in life, he is wonderful at soothing my nerves and making me get some perspective. The flip-side of this is he is forgetful because he doesn’t keep the little stuff at the forefront of his mind all the time. I don’t get mad anymore at the persistent bad points because I repeated the benefits of the positive counter-balancing points again and again when I got mad in the past. Now, when the annoying stuff happens, I just tell myself almost immediately that that’s the price of the wonderful part I treasure.
My main concern for George is that, since the Japanese tend to value “reading between the lines” and are not always good at communicating directly, the whole process of working things out will be harder. However, not all Japanese people are circumspect, particularly with their spouses, so perhaps he can work it all out.
BTW, I appreciate the kind words you and Richmond had for my comment!
You’re lucky you’re white then. Japanese girls love whites and latrinos, but they hate Blacks.
I do not hate you (unless you hate me because of my race, which I think that you do) but I do envy you. If I were not Black, I could also have a jap wife, but the Gods saw fit to make me Black.
ViolentAJ, I suggest you take a look at this blog:
http://www.gaijinsmash.net/
It is written by a Black gaijin living in Japan and in a relationship with a Japanese girl. While he has been with her for a year or more, he indicates in his blogs that this is not his first gf in Japan. So, take the chip off of your shoulder, in Japan we’re all gaijin. From the very few lines that you wrote I get the impression that you carry around a lot of resentment and seem quick to lay blame at other’s feet. As my grandmother used to say, “We reap what we sow.” If you put forth a more positive front, you might get different results.
“Japanese girls love whites and latrinos, but they hate Blacks.”
Speaking as a black guy who has been in Japan for several years, I can safely say that this is the dumbest thing I’ve heard in a very long time. If anything, the opposite can sometimes be true, and there will be girls who will want to date you only because you are black. I mean, I don’t ever take that type particularly seriously, but the point is that you need to ditch the negative attitude and preconceptions. If you present a friendly and positive image, you shouldn’t have any problem getting a date in Japan.
As far as the article, that was very powerful stuff George. You never know how these things will turn out, but it sounds as though you have thought a lot about it, and are probably in a better position to affect a positive change than a lot of other people in similar situations. Good luck.
J-Rock,
I used to complain about people staring at me etc., when I lived in Japan, like many foreigners. I guess you would say I’m a ‘hakujin.’
One day I complained to a good friend who happens to be black.
He said: “N., this is no different than what it’s like for me as an African American back in the States every day.”
Is this your experience, too?
J-Rock, do not be a fool. You know that Japanese girls like Whites, latrinos, turks, etc. and not Blacks. Very few Japanese girls would like Blacks, but I think that most would be willing to date a White or latrinos (at least the ones that would go for foreigners).
Austingaijin, I know we are all “gaijin”, but some “gaijin” are treated better than others. As Blacks, we get the short end of the stick when it comes to jobs and girls. You know it is a fact.
ViolentAJ,
Again I have to disagree. I don’t know what you’re basing this on, but when I was single, I never had a problem getting a date. Most of the black guys I know, whether from North America, the UK or Africa would probably say the same thing. I also have a good job at a major pharmaceutical company, so there’s strike #2 against your “theory”. Black guys with major chips on their shoulders might have a hard time, but that’s true of any race or ethnicity.
KokuRyu,
I’m not from the US, so I can’t pretend to be an expert on American racial politics. I won’t lie to you though. I do sometimes find it amusing when middle class white people experience racism in Japan for the first time. “J, now I know how you feel”. They don’t really, but it’s still good for people to see it from the other perspective at least once.
I am Japanese girl, and I like black guys. I like not only as they are very ‘manly’ but because they are kind to me. Many girls like black guys, it is not just me I am sure.
Sorry then. I wish that I could meet a nice girl like you then, Mie hehe.
(No I’m not hitting on you online).
Mie,
Are you registered on Stippy Friends? If so, what is your username? I think we have something in common.
I think we have something in common.
You both breathe air…and require lots of love. Mie, you’re very popular with the boys.
[...] spent a couple weeks in a Tokyo holding cell, but he’s at it again, with a straightforward expose on his marriage strife. The comments are almost better (and longer) than the article [...]
SchwarzenFaust? “Fist of the Blacks”, huh? Between “ViolentAG” and “Fist of the Blacks” I am beginning to see a pattern here. Maybe if you were less violent (physically and verbally), you would have more success with the girls. Or maybe “Fist of the Blacks” isn’t interested in making love, just making war…
George: I think the advice you have gotten above (besides VAG and FoB) is excellent. I think your relationship with your wife is salvageable, if you want to salvage it. We are the foreigners here in Japan and I think we have to adjust to the customs and behaviors expected here in Japan.
I can relate to your homesickness and perhaps annoyance with some of the way things are done here in Japan. My Japanese wife is a super extrovert who volunteers for everything in our city and gets in over her head with too much to do. I sometimes feel like her chauffeur as we drive from function to function, visit to visit, etc. We get lots of gifts from friends and even strangers, but my wife turns around and immediately gives them away to some other friend or stranger. I guess that’s the Japanese way.
My wife spends every free moment on her blog. When I finally get to check my e-mails, she says, “Don’t stay on there too long, it wastes electricity.” She says this as she is watching TV and every light is on inside the house and the heater is on in July. I guess that’s the Japanese way.
My wife tells me to gargle and wash my hands when I get home from work, she tells me where to put my hands when I eat dinner, she even recently told me how to breathe properly. Her wisdom knows no bounds. I guess that’s the Japanese way.
I work for the city education department as an AET and try to do my job well. They sure come up with some hairbrained ideas for things for me to do. I do them with a smile and get my vacation days cut “to put me on equal footing” with the JETs. I guess that’s the Japanese way.
Japanese traffic lights drive me crazy: they are on every street corner and constantly red or turning red after that panic-stop-inducing, nanosecond-long yellow light. I have found a nice nerve calming activity to do while I wait for the light to turn green again: I give my wife some kisses (before trying this, take the car out of gear).
All of these annoyances can’t stop me from enjoying myself here in Japan. My wife is a “stunning cutie” and delicious, too. She gives me massages and tells me how lucky she is. What more can a guy want?
Once you rekindle your relationship with your wife, I would recommend a trip or two to America, or wherever, to get it out of your system. Yes, the grass always looks greener… Living in Japan is pretty nice. Your wife really stood by you during that prison episode. I think she loves you and doesn’t want to break up, but is worried that you are going to up and leave her one day. She needs some reassurance from you.
Can one of the Stippy mods clean up the YouTube-ish racist crap here?
Admin note: Done.
To SchwarzenFaust: I have deleted your comments. Comments on cultural diferences, and why you agree or disagree – sure! But, no blatant racism here please.
This is a very observant piece. I wonder how many of us there are out there. All of my friends who are into the 2nd marriage are happily married. It always seems to be first one which is a dissaster, as couples get married too fast. Us gaijin get that wet-back fever and get wrapped up in the romance of it all too early. Three years later and we realise we have absolutely nothing in common with our spouses. I could not be more unhappy right now if I tried…
Hmm. Why do you liek Japanese so much if you dislike blatant racism then?
Simply because it is not directed against you. You sir, like your Japanese, are a hypocrite.
Wtf? You make no sense Schwarzenfaust. Liking Japanese people, and being racist are too different kettles of fish. It’s like saying, “Why do you like oranges if you dislike fruit picking?” (What brand of シンナー are you sniffing? I want some).
Can someone block this guy’s ip address from the site? He is a menace to society.
Just a troll who wants attention is my guess
Tracking this as a topic of possible future interest.
lookıng for true love for longlife .who want be happy longlife?
lookıng for true love for longlife whos want be happy for longlife?
Just wanted to say that custody of kids is all important.
If you ever were confronted with divorce papers, note that custody is resolved then and there on those papers with two witnesses. The father of the the ex- then really becomes head of the family so if he decides your going to be ex-communicated it will stick. if indeed we are talking about your ex- being a Japanese traditional girl.
In my divorce we discussed this, and through real trust decided to take back control-give it an international flavor–and I got custody based on the promise I still live up to–four years–of shared custody. It works.
At the end of the day, kids were more important. I suffered thinking how alienated they were becoming. I was the least important thing back then. Now they have a foreign home in Japan so experience both cultures while here, unique really but probably not the most practical.
of course a lot depends on the children”s wishes and there personalities , gender.
best of luck,
Your wife is HOTT!!!!
George and All,
Seems I found this article in time (or perhaps a little late maybe). As everyone has mentioned, it is difficult to be married, let alone being married to another nationality in another country. I think George and his wife are fine as people (dare I say friends) but simply not as husband and wife.
That is where I am. I have been here for more than 15 years and now my wife and I are talking about divorce for the same reasons George and many others have. I think that Japanese woman are so supportive of their foreign husbands (husbands in general) that they give up the things they wanted to do in life. That is my wife’s situation now. I never thought I actually prevented her from doing things but just being married to me, prevented her from doing them. Simple things like just using her native language (we met speaking English and never used Japanese in our relationship). A very trivial issue but come smack down argument time, it’s an issue, just like every other little thing that can become a reason to split.
For me, I am infamous for procrastinating with important things…such as applying for permanent residency since I was living under the secure blanket of a spouse visa. Now I face the possibility of having to leave for good since I never finished my degree and do not have a permanent residency. My wife and I are talking things out but it is crunch time for me since I need to apply now and then if it is approved, apply for a divorce…..don’t know if anyone has suggestions on this.
Anyway, otsukaresama to us all and good luck for any of you going through this, have gone through it or will go through it.
Cheers.
let’s keep the gene pool intact.
Hey Youko in the pool you all look the same to me… Cept for the ones with the really bad crooked teeth.
George:
You need to immediately set aside any idea of saving your marriage and take the difficult steps to try and make sure you will have access to your children should your wife decide to divorce you.
I suspect you have already heard of many gaijin men in Japan who are denied access to their children for no other reason than that their wife has decided to divorce them. If you are not aware of that, you also need to know to expect zero fairness from the court system here. Your wife will get whatever she asks for from the court.
I don’t know what your financial situation is, not how much you trust your wife to be a good enough mother to allow you regular visitation, but if she is typical, I would recommend that you take the following steps as soon as possible.
1. Establish an offshore savings account and fund it as well as you can. If your wife gets in contact with an aggressive lawyer, they will try to take as much of your money as they can. You may feel that you don’t mind supporting her, as it benefits your children, but you should also consider that you can do that at your own discretion. If you have no savings secured outside Japan, you may not have that as an option.
2. Carefully, completely document your family life with your children. Make sure you have plenty of photos of yourself with them, taking them places and in scenarios where you are alone with them. If possible, get photos/videotape of you with them in your home country. If visitation rights ever become an issue, you will be asked to provide this kind of evidence — however absurd it sounds to have to prove that you are important to your children. If you have these, put copies in a safe place your wife can’t get to. My marriage fell apart within a couple of years and my wife became less and less trustworthy as we tried to make it work for seven long years. In the end, she was capable of just about anything, including violence and, certainly, theft. I’m not saying this would happen to you, but it could.
3. It sounds like you have an open, mature enough relationship with your wife to freely discuss how a divorce would affect your children. Discuss these concerns with her carefully and get it on videotape, one way or another. You want to be able to show the court that she herself acknowledges that the children need their father.
4. Contact a lawyer immediately. Most attorneys in Japan are not worthy of the name. They see their job as simply to help you fill out the forms and to speak to the judge for you, but not really as your advocate. I was shocked to discover that some lawyers were willing to admit that they weren’t really on my side in the case. They just wanted to get the fee for “processing” the case. After going through two of these kinds of miserable parasites, I settled on a third who was willing to act as my advocate, but incapable. He apparently had little or no training as a client’s advocate. He was brilliant, and memorized the thick file related to my case in short order, but utterly lacked the ability to spot simple, blatant contradictions in my ex-wife’s testimony. Even when I pointed them out and listed them, along with explanations, he was hardly able to present them to the judge, other than to recite what I had written.
I wish I could refer you to a good lawyer, but I know of none. That is one reason I suggest you get in touch with one pre-emptively, before you actually face divorce. It may take many months before you can find a lawyer who you feel is actually on your side in the sense of seeing it as their job to achieve your objectives in any divorce case, not simply to guide you through the process and let the judge decide whatever he may.
5. If off-shore drilling, aka infidelity, by you is an issue, you must take action without delay. If your wife obtains proof you haven’t been faithful, she will have an open and shut case to take a lot of your money and deny you any access to your children. If she already has proof, you need to beg for her mercy and forgiveness and, again, get in on videotape. An alternative is to discuss it fully with her and get her to say that your marriage is no longer truly valid, as you have both given up the commitment and are just together for the children — on videotape, of course. If she’s been unfaithful, do what it takes to get proof.
I never did any of these things until it was too late. I failed to act largely out of ignorance. Firstly, I always believed that my wife’s lying, violence and vindictiveness would be enough to convince any judge that, if anything, she should pay compensation to me. But nothing even close to that happened. The first judge in our case apparently never bothered to read the case. He seemed only fleetingly familiar with testimony made at hearings he presided over mere weeks earlier, and transcripts of which sat on his desk. Secondly, I didn’t want to take actions that would undermine what little trust there was between my then-wife and I. For years, I was living day-to-day trying to avoid conflict at all costs. We had no mechanism for rationally working through disagreements, so anything can could inject controversy had to be avoided.
I hope you’re not in a similar situation, but if you are, get tough and act now. It may be your only hope.
Just want to let you know that you should not be too hard on yourself. It just may be that there are inherent difficulties faced by foreign men when marrying Japanese women. Difficulties that just are so deep rotted that they cannot be overcome. Take for example a friend of mine and the terrible experience he had when he got an unexpected surprise from his Japanese wife.
Junko Muto of Tokyo – Married to an American business man in Tokyo; however, she is already married to another guy – She never got divorced from her first husband!!!!
Her current husband met her while living in Tokyo and married her. They registered their marriage with the local government office as required in Japan. However, the Junko, as it turned out, was also married to another man in the US and never divorced. She never told this to her current husband. This US marriage was a legally recognized marriage in Japan, consequently, according to Japanese law, she was guilty of a crime, bigamy.
Eventually the American guy had to enagage legal help, which took an incredible amount of time and money that he had to pay to get the mess sorted out. He had to engage both US and Japanese legal counsel and ended up in Japanese family court.
Her attitude about the whole situation made things worse. She expected the American guy, to accept that she did’t tell him about already being married because she did’t want to lose him. Now that he knew, he should fix the situation for her. She actually didn’t think it was such a big deal now that he knew about it and that he was wrong for not accepting her as a human being who is not perfect.
Cato: not sure what your example has to do with the discussion. Regardless of that, you really shouldn’t be using people’s real names like that. I happen to know the person you’re talking about and I’m sure she doesn’t appreciate having her private matters exposed in a public forum like this.
Whatever message you’re trying to convey could and should have been presented without naming names.
Shame on you.
shame on her?
Jon,
Do you even know this person?
There may have been all manner of extenuating circumstances and while it is certainly not exemplary behavior, it should be up to her husband to decide the seriousness of it.
I do know the person, though not well, and I very seriously doubt that she did it to try and screw anyone, literally or metaphorically. But it doesn’t matter what I think, because really, it’s between her and husband, none of my business.
As it happens, I checked up on CATO via Google. He’s spreading all sorts of rumors on all sorts of Web sites.
The pathetic dude has a vendetta going against Junko. How sad is that?
I suspect she rejected him at some point and he still can’t get over it.
Is Junko Muto a Hottie too?
I am married to a Beautiful girl from Tokyo, we have been in our relationship for 4 years and have a 3 year old son. She has been living here in Canada (West Coast) for the duration with two trips back home for one each time.
While she is a great person, she also very much wants to control every aspect of life in every minute detail and this is where the problem comes in. I’m not sure if George is experiencing this or has experienced this or not, but it does after some time create a feeling of resentment and when I stand up and say and let her know i am not comfortable about how she wants to control me she gets very angry and even agressive. I do not argue, and try to remove myself from the situation, however she blocks the way so I can’t leave. Taes enormous patience. This time on her return to Japan, I asked her to stay longer, so I can sort things out.
She says she loves me so much, and down deep I still Love her so much too. It is important for both people to understand each other, to make an effort to understand our differences in culture, background and thinking, but she does not acknowledge there is a problem in that regard and blames me for everything even though I work so hard to make her comfortable, to make sure we have good recreation and time alone and so on, but no appreciation form her for how hard I work to take care of us and to provide some of the fun things in life. Our sex life has been above and beyond, and for some strange reason after we have a had conflict, we end up in the bedroom making up for it.
Not sure what to do, and I’m sure George feels the same, wish there was a way to reach her, let her know about the Love that still exists.
At this time I have actually given up and will be moving on.
Just thought I would share part of my experience.
Have a Great Day
Ron,
I had a very similar marriage experience, except for the part about the great make-up sex. I ended up divorcing, a costly move both financially and in terms of my daughter, who was 2 years old at the time, being denied the right to visit with me. I eventually, over several years time, regained visitation rights. You might have already read my comment above about planning for divorce and steps you can take to prevent getting royally screwed in court. If not, you might want to scroll up and read it.
As for the control issue, I think you are correct that there is a cultural element.
I get a sense that a significant percentage of Japanese women who marry foreigners do so because they cannot bear the thought of marry a Japanese man because he would insist on controlling his own time and whereabouts on a daily basis, in exchange for ceding control of the budget and household matters.
The type of woman who need to have control of everything probably feels more likely to get that from a foreigner.
Foreign men, well, judging from my own case, anyway, have a hard time seeing this coming, because during courtship, the issue of control seldom arises. Living separately, there are no domestic control issues at all. And while dating, it’s easy enough for the woman to let you have some freedom, since she’s confident that its only a temporary circumstance.
Once married, she takes every inch and never gives up anything. At first, the guy doesn’t worry about it, since he assumes a fundamental sense of equality in the relationship, emerging from the fact that the two people love each other equally. He may assume that while he’s doing a lot of giving and very little taking, the tables will turn from time to time and all will balance out.
Years go by and the tables never turn. Not only that, but as the thrill and romance wane, the wife demands more of what brought her to the relationship in the first place: control. Soon, the man has to give up his guy friends one by one, as each might interfere with the wife’s full control. She may even try to interfere with your work life, by trying to make sure you aren’t sent on business trips or, simply, undermining your success and making your status more tenuous. That only works, of course, if you happen to work for a Japanese company, and, even then, a more traditional one. They actually believe complaints from an employee’s wife are relevant and may expect you to answer for them in some way.
Many Japanese have no basic belief in the benefits of equality. They are more comfortable with a hierarchy and the rigid turf assignments that entails. In a more equal relationship, turf needn’t be carefully spelled out, since the underlying assumption is that fairness is the goal of both parties. In a hierarchical relationship, there is no expectation of fairness, only appropriateness to the assigned role. In Ron’s case, it sounds like his wife has given him the assignment of breadwinner and arrogated to herself the role of decision-maker supreme.
I wish I knew of a way out of that other than divorce, but I know of none.
I tried putting my foot down when issues mattered to me and it only resulted in escalation. If insisted, she shouted. If I shouted, she screamed. If I screamed, she got violent, throwing things, breaking things and, in other cases, simply throwing away my favorite clothes and that sort of thing.
And even on matters less inflammatory, the problem with a control freak is that, even if you succeed in prizing out a bit of autonomy, they see that as a huge loss and cannot really be happy or enjoy themselves under those circumstances.
Plan your escape carefully Ron and make a run for it.
Reading about George and all the comments reminds me of something a Japanese friend told me many years ago:
“getting married is simple; a divorce requires passion”
Good luck to all…
Getting into a woman’s heart is a science. Getting out of it is an art.
40 Year Old Virgin, you sound well-versed in this and I respect what you’re saying, but your comments depress me. I feel like surely there is more of a way out of this predicament than “plan your escape carefully”??? There HAS to be more hope than that dude.
Wow, cool article. Although I’m Japanese, my kokusai-kekkon was to a Honshu girl in Tokyo. There are many elements missing here that I have to share. One, I’m Okinawan-Japanese, two I’m Shin-Nikkei. (Japanese American). However, my ex-wife was a typical Tokyo-jin. If there is such a term.
Our problems started early. For one, I have distaste for certain local foods in California. I’m completely sick of “burritos” and “tacos”. For some odd reason, Japanese love Mexican food. Maybe because there’s no Mexicans in Japan? Go figure.
Second, I realised that our differences even include the choice of words in Japanese language. Since I was born in Okinawa, my language differs significantly to mainland Japanese people. In fact, the problem is that I’m not “White”.
I speak a tongue that they consider “trash” for formal Japanese people. And then on top of that, they make fun of my Japanese, even though Okinawa has their own history and roots.
Where this story is interesting to me is how the white guy has issues with his children. I have a daughter in Tokyo at the moment. She’s American born, which makes it interesting. However, I made the decision that she must learn the Japanese language and culture before she can find her roots back here in America.
For me, being Japanese isn’t a choice like religions or nationalities. Being Japanese is a privilege. I don’t care if you’re happa or full Japanese, it should be seen as an honor to Japanese. Our history goes back 2000 years. It makes America look like small potatoes.
To me, it’s an absolute shame to see Japanese Americans in this country who have no desire to learn the culture and know Japan.
Wow Nonno, you’ve really bowled me over with banality. There are many problems that afflict marriages, but menu choices. Wow. You must truly suffer. Your wife likes tacos. Oh my god, you poor thing. How can you possible endure? Gaman!! Gambatte! You’re joking, right?
Word choices? Another cruel fate. To have to listen to someone using the language in other ways — how can you possibly remain sane under such intense pressure?
Maybe it’s a good thing that you’ve reserved your absolute shame for Americans who fail to adequately appreciate Japanese culture. That way you spare yourself of having to think about the 10s of millions of Japanese who divide their lives between useless giri overtime at the office, the pachinko parlor, the occasional soapland “conquest” and the editorial page of the Yomiuri Shimbun. At least they know Japanese “culture,” right?
40 Year Old Virgin,
Would love to contact you concerning my situation. You seem to have had a similar experience. How can I get a hold of you?
Team: email me at realandpositive@yahoo.com
I am a Canadian Guy in Vancouver BC Canada. I have been in two relationships with Japanese Girls, the first was 1 year, the 2nd 4.5 years. They were both really cute, hot and sweet at the start but son became very controling and extreme in many things. I am easy going and had a hard time with being told always what to do how to do it, what to say and more…. so I broke up. Since then I have met several Japanese girls that are from smaller cities (the girls I was with were from Tokyo). I find the girls from the smaller cities to be very easy going and enjoy them as great friends.
I hope soon to be able to meet one that will be my True Love. There are no girls in the world like Japanese girls, the most amazing people in the world in my opinion.
Looking forward to meeting the one true one and to start a great life together.
Just a few comments
Have a Great Day!!
40 Year Old,
Sounds like you know exactly what it is all about. Your right on. This has been my precise experience. Just getting away from that now. Been so extreme it has actually almost cost me my business due to the stress it has created.
Would be nice if we could communicate to discuss more.
I gave her everything I could to make her happy, but always about her and only her. She can talk say things, when I tried to talk didn’t want to hear it etc…. but there are some who are not like that, will find one. Have met a few girls here in Vancouver recently that don’t seem to be like that, will see how it goes. I also find the younger ones are pretty nice and don’t seem to have those issues. My ex was 27 and the girls I am hanging with as friends right now are early 20′s, very different attitude. I’m 38.